10th February 2019
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Why the United Imperial Knights System sucks.

Made by Moke in Feedback

Still Moke
Master
818 posts
1,518
10th February 2019, 02:58 PM

This new United Imperial Knights system was a bad idea. I know its a kind of unpopular opinion, but I think this system is abused, out of place, and unnecessary for the game.

Here's my reasons why,


1. Out of place.

We really don't need a united force of 20+ users at the moment. The CZ is so dead that none of it requires such a large force. The Dracs don't require that kind of manpower, the mascots don't. It's just a huge buildup for the Empire to no avail. If this had come out with Dagor Dagoroth or the "World Wars" were happening, that would be absolutely necessary. But this didn't need to be created right now.

2. Abused

I've noticed that Knights that once belonged as "Cavaliers", "Battalions" or "North Knights" got switched around. I saw this in the what happened to Providence. Some old Cavaliers from there got put in the South Division and Das Divisions and North Divisions. I bet the same has been done to other knights from other islands. The most active ones seemed to be put in the South and North divisions. This process is called "gerrymandering" and it seemed to have been clearly used in the decision making process for who is in what division. The Providence Cavaliers were shrunk by a lot due to the change. You'd think since it was all Ian's idea, he wouldn't get the short end of the stick. The way it should have worked is that all knights of whatever island would get assigned their division based on the island they were in. But instead, it was manipulated to benefit two islands. Some of the people who were demoted never even got notification in advance (Adawg to name an example). It's funny that I barely see any knights of the Dorval division. It's funny how knights of other islands got KC on a different island out of nowhere. I've also heard there was very little say in any of the decision making processes, but that's just a rumor.

3. Confusing

"1 Lord/Lady Commander, who has overall say of who is Knight and is able to take control of other divisions if necessary. He/She leads the Knight Captains. The LC is also in charge of his/her own division: the South Division."

So Cristal has the ability to decide for ALL Knight Captains but runs one Division over all? This means that technically the South has limited the autonomy of other islands. That's not good. No hate to Cristal btw, I'm sure she wouldn't abuse this.

"Having divisions as factions instead of ranks will help simplify the Empire and also provide an easier way to make adjustments where necessary."

Why does the Empire need this simplification. It seems like it wasn't that hard before to make Cavaliers, Battalions, Nightwatches, North Knights, and South Knights before. If it was, just give the power to make them over to the ones that run the island.

"This way, if we have a lack of Knights in one division, we're able to reassign Knights from another division without any conflict."

Except with this system knights were gerrymandered so that divisions of smaller islands were shrunk. The Empire has CREATED a lack of Knights in divisions to solve this problem. It has effectively messed with the islands for no reason.

"Bringing us together has also made us a stronger fighting force against evil."

But there isn't any huge threat at the moment. Even if there was, we have War Knights for a reason, which is much easier to make.

4. Identity

To add on to the shrinking of autonomy this change brings to islands. It has effective shrunken the identity Providence, Das, and Dorval tried to build for their Knights. When users saw these knights, they weren't just knights, they were Cavaliers or Battalions or Nightwatch. These names gave contrast to the differing islands. They were Cavaliers/Battalions/Nightwatch first. It strengthened the island's identity. The islands made these new identities for themselves so they felt like more than colonies, they felt like islands that ran with high autonomy. Before progressive leaders to these colonies came along, King of Das, Top Dogg, and King of Dorval were merely just titles that felt powerless. But they built up Knights and created a stronger island. However, with this new change, they are now merely colonies again. Their identities have been washed into just "Divisions of the Southern Empire." They can also be gerrymandered however the South pleases.


Conclusion

This change wasn't the best, it came at the wrong time, and it was effectively abused. I know there isn't any going back to the old system, but I surely liked the old system better.

TL;DR: The system was gerrymandered to shrink the armies of smaller islands and shrink the identity of knights from there, there is no reason for it be here when there is no large imminent threat.
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Thank u next.
Master
127 posts
186
10th February 2019, 03:01 PM

Honestly, I agree with you.
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Member
546 posts
274
10th February 2019, 03:21 PM

Yeah I agree and I did hear from some kings they didn’t get to pick their knights or captains or had no say and the south got the best warriors
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hot eyebrows
Moderator
994 posts
1,122
10th February 2019, 03:27 PM

1. Out of place
I agree that we have a lot of knights, and that CZ is dead but this was a needed change to happen because it was even MORE disorganized the way it was before. Cavaliers, north knights, eastern battalion and imperial knights all got titles and nightwatch wasn't given one. I know it's simple to just make the title but Damen didn't want to make a title for nightwatch because there were too many knight ranks.

Despite the fact that CZ is dead or not, the knight system was in place to help balance out the amount of knights there were in each land. Two islands were dead while the other 3 were active and Orbay wasn't doing much to fix the fact that he had no eastern battalion (no offence orbay). Merging all the knights helped fixed the problem of imbalance, so when a division is in need of knights we can switch around the knights to help make everything balanced again.

And I know we could just switch around people and just have separate knight ranks but again, Damen didn't like the idea of having so many knight ranks when half of them were dead.

2. Abused
Yes a lot of people were switched around, and it's something that had to be done only because there were more knights in one island than the other. People were switched around to places they are BEST fit in. It's also based on combat and who they'd work well with. If you think there are people in divisions who are inactive or they don't like that division they are in this can easily be fixed between the land owners and the lord commander. It's not like these changes are forever and I am a very open minded person and if people don't like where they are placed they can be switched if they have a valid reason.

Also, I agree with what you said for Ians point and I'll talk to Ian about switching around people. We didn't try to make him get the short end of the stick and I'd assume these people would get more active. This problem can be easily fixed by talking to the people in the division.

3. Confusing
- Your confusion with my role: I am in charge of all divisions and I work with the 4 KCs and island leaders to make decisions. The lord commander basically has the final say. I also lead south division (which is why there's no KC for south division)

- Your confusion with factions: It was actually hard to make knights before the change. Ian didn't have the same amount of knights the north and south did. Providence, dorval and das were at the short end of the stick because they didn't get the same amount of knights as the other islands and it was hard to find people who were actually interested in the role. Chelsey even lowered the limit of knights to 8 and I had to demote to people from imperial knight. Having factions makes it smoother to move people around and it's much more organized. You also say the empire doesn't need to be simplified but it's better if it is just so new users and other users are able to understand it more.

- "This way, if we have a lack of Knights in one division, we're able to reassign Knights from another division without any conflict."
I already discussed this and if there are problems again, KCs and land leaders can always approach me and ask this problem can easily be fixed lol

- "Bringing us together has also made us a stronger fighting force against evil."
Today we got info that das is gonna get attacked in the next to weeks so yeah, we'll see what CZ has to say about this.

4. Identity
- Again, this is something that can also be changed very easily. Armors can be made, unique weapons for certain divisions that are only exclusive to the certain islands, etc. There will always be a lot of diversity between all the lands and that's why I am open to any suggestions.

I think this post was really needed and I will for sure make changes ASAP. If you have any other suggestions u can DM me.
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Foot

hoolianhak
Moderator
536 posts
369
10th February 2019, 03:29 PM

I agree with you for the most part. This one force would be a good superpower to have, as long as they don't gerrymander the squads, or give two colonies power over all the other ones. If this is gonna work, everyone needs an equal say, and the Lord/Lady Commander should be able to command KC's and in the worst case, Knights.
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Still Moke
Master
818 posts
1,518
10th February 2019, 03:40 PM

Cristal412 wrote on 10th February 2019, 03:27 PM:
1. Out of place
I agree that we have a lot of knights, and that CZ is dead but this was a needed change to happen because it was even MORE disorganized the way it was before. Cavaliers, north knights, eastern battalion and imperial knights all got titles and nightwatch wasn't given one. I know it's simple to just make the title but Damen didn't want to make a title for nightwatch because there were too many knight ranks.
Despite the fact that CZ is dead or not, the knight system was in place to help balance out the amount of knights there were in each land. Two islands were dead while the other 3 were active and Orbay wasn't doing much to fix the fact that he had no eastern battalion (no offence orbay). Merging all the knights helped fixed the problem of imbalance, so when a division is in need of knights we can switch around the knights to help make everything balanced again.
And I know we could just switch around people and just have separate knight ranks but again, Damen didn't like the idea of having so many knight ranks when half of them were dead.
2. Abused
Yes a lot of people were switched around, and it's something that had to be done only because there were more knights in one island than the other. People were switched around to places they are BEST fit in. It's also based on combat and who they'd work well with. If you think there are people in divisions who are inactive or they don't like that division they are in this can easily be fixed between the land owners and the lord commander. It's not like these changes are forever and I am a very open minded person and if people don't like where they are placed they can be switched if they have a valid reason.
Also, I agree with what you said for Ians point and I'll talk to Ian about switching around people. We didn't try to make him get the short end of the stick and I'd assume these people would get more active. This problem can be easily fixed by talking to the people in the division.
3. Confusing
- Your confusion with my role: I am in charge of all divisions and I work with the 4 KCs and island leaders to make decisions. The lord commander basically has the final say. I also lead south division (which is why there's no KC for south division)
- Your confusion with factions: It was actually hard to make knights before the change. Ian didn't have the same amount of knights the north and south did. Providence, dorval and das were at the short end of the stick because they didn't get the same amount of knights as the other islands and it was hard to find people who were actually interested in the role. Chelsey even lowered the limit of knights to 8 and I had to demote to people from imperial knight. Having factions makes it smoother to move people around and it's much more organized. You also say the empire doesn't need to be simplified but it's better if it is just so new users and other users are able to understand it more.
- "This way, if we have a lack of Knights in one division, we're able to reassign Knights from another division without any conflict."
I already discussed this and if there are problems again, KCs and land leaders can always approach me and ask this problem can easily be fixed lol
- "Bringing us together has also made us a stronger fighting force against evil."
Today we got info that das is gonna get attacked in the next to weeks so yeah, we'll see what CZ has to say about this.
4. Identity
- Again, this is something that can also be changed very easily. Armors can be made, unique weapons for certain divisions that are only exclusive to the certain islands, etc. There will always be a lot of diversity between all the lands and that's why I am open to any suggestions.
I think this post was really needed and I will for sure make changes ASAP. If you have any other suggestions u can DM me.

Thanks for the response, and I’m glad you’re open minded enough to fix the flaws in the new system. However I have some other questions.

1. How does creating an inbalance of Knights in divisions create balance of all Knights in divisions? There are clearly a lot more Southern Division Knights than say Prov Division or Das Division. Why does there really need to be a balance anyway. It seemed like it was fine to begin with and an inbalance could have been taken up with the Kings themselves.

2. Switching people based on “who they worked well with” and “activity” was clearly not transparent in the first explanation so thank you for pointing that out. However I don’t know how you defined these because everyone is different.

3. I still don’t see why Simplification was necessary or what was so hard about making promoting people who WERE interested in the rank.

4. Your fix to identity requires a lot more work and even then won’t really be enough. But I’m sure over the time these changes would be beneficial anyway.
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Member
1,692 posts
281
10th February 2019, 04:00 PM

The idea is a jumbled mess right now.
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Master
927 posts
782
10th February 2019, 04:02 PM

I agree, Mikey. It's not working out right now. When it was all seperate ranks it was much better and more organized in my opinion.
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Master
534 posts
2,443
10th February 2019, 07:02 PM

I think the idea has been greatly misunderstood. I’ll try to explain again.

Regarding separate ranks between the islands, I will agree it gave them a better sense of identity. However, Nightwatch were practically invisible. Damen didn’t want to make titles for them. Battalion didn’t exist. There were none. All the strong knights were grouping together under the South and Providence and the other colonies’ knights were going inactive. That’s something I wanted to fix so Ian’s idea seemed like a great one.

Your claim of “gerrymandering” is completely false. Cristal and I organized Knights into divisions with the idea of ensuring that each division had equal amount of skill in fighting and ensuring that the Knights who had to work together all the time would work together well without discourse. We then shifted people around based on where they wanted to be or based on who the Monarchs/Top Dogg specifically requested to be in their division. Activity simply wasn’t something we’d thought about, considering 75% of the community is inactive when there isn’t any crimezone happening. I’m honestly hurt that you think I’d sabotage the other islands.

The Colony Rulers and I decided to combine forces in order to become stronger together. Something people (even the rulers themselves) seem to misunderstand is the fact that the knights in one division are not that island’s only knights. We combined everything therefore we are sharing everything. Divisions were made ONLY as a form of organization.

For example, if someone threatened Providence (since you think Providence does not benefit from this at all), instead of only having a cavalry of 5-8 knights to defend the island, they would have the entire army to defend it.

I’m sure even after reading this you’ll still have issues, and believe me it’s not an unpopular opinion. I just ask that you have trust in me and the idea that eventually the kinks will be worked out and things will be better than they were before. I really am working to benefit everyone around me, not myself.
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stood on the edge
Master
2,205 posts
7,745
10th February 2019, 07:41 PM

I disagree, I honestly think the idea of combining all Knights was a really good idea. I think it allows more flexibility and actually allows Island Knights to have the powers as an Imperial Knight; which makes them more useful. Also, now Island Knight ranks won't be thought of as a secondary/unimportant rank, it has a purpose which is much more highlighted by this system. As well, now we can be more informed with each other, so it allows an army of users to react to a situation quicker, and with more Knights. I know that CZ is dead, but eventually it will get more chaotic again. Even if it isn't right now, that doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. I think you misunderstood what Cristal and Chelsey did with the Knights, because they had thought of the best intentions for everyone, that comes from me personally discussing with them their plans. I think time is what will age this system perfectly, it seems a bit off right now, but once CZ attacks start, we will be able to see the true results from this system.
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Still Moke
Master
818 posts
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10th February 2019, 07:45 PM

Chelsey wrote on 10th February 2019, 07:02 PM:
I think the idea has been greatly misunderstood. I’ll try to explain again.
Regarding separate ranks between the islands, I will agree it gave them a better sense of identity. However, Nightwatch were practically invisible. Damen didn’t want to make titles for them. Battalion didn’t exist. There were none. All the strong knights were grouping together under the South and Providence and the other colonies’ knights were going inactive. That’s something I wanted to fix so Ian’s idea seemed like a great one.
Your claim of “gerrymandering” is completely false. Cristal and I organized Knights into divisions with the idea of ensuring that each division had equal amount of skill in fighting and ensuring that the Knights who had to work together all the time would work together well without discourse. We then shifted people around based on where they wanted to be or based on who the Monarchs/Top Dogg specifically requested to be in their division. Activity simply wasn’t something we’d thought about, considering 75% of the community is inactive when there isn’t any crimezone happening. I’m honestly hurt that you think I’d sabotage the other islands.
The Colony Rulers and I decided to combine forces in order to become stronger together. Something people (even the rulers themselves) seem to misunderstand is the fact that the knights in one division are not that island’s only knights. We combined everything therefore we are sharing everything. Divisions were made ONLY as a form of organization.
For example, if someone threatened Providence (since you think Providence does not benefit from this at all), instead of only having a cavalry of 5-8 knights to defend the island, they would have the entire army to defend it.
I’m sure even after reading this you’ll still have issues, and believe me it’s not an unpopular opinion. I just ask that you have trust in me and the idea that eventually the kinks will be worked out and things will be better than they were before. I really am working to benefit everyone around me, not myself.

1st Paragraph: I had a talk with Cristal about that and while I still don’t think that’s a good enough answer, I’ll take it.

2nd: From what I’ve seen the most active knights seem to be on the North and South divisions while the inactive ones were put in the rest. Some of the Providence Knights were moved to other divisions as well seemingly against their decision. That’s what I call Gerrymandering. In your first post, you did not at one point make it clear how the Knights were picked. Idk how you can be insulted by not being transparent enough with us.

3rd: Ever since the Empire took control over every island, the problems of one island have always been the problems of the Empire. When Providence was attacked by IMPERIAL, your War Knights saw it their duty to pitch in because Providence is a colony of the empire. You were already “stronger together.” Your new system didn’t change that.

4th: Someone DID threaten Providence once, Miromeski. Not only did the Cavaliers handle it, but so did other Knights of other islands help too. It’s CZ for Christ sake, ofc everyone wants a piece of it.

5th: After my talk with Cristal, I have faith that you’ll make it better. But I wished you were more transparent. Thanks.
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Master
534 posts
2,443
10th February 2019, 08:47 PM

Supermikey97 wrote on 10th February 2019, 07:45 PM:
2nd: From what I’ve seen the most active knights seem to be on the North and South divisions while the inactive ones were put in the rest. Some of the Providence Knights were moved to other divisions as well seemingly against their decision. That’s what I call Gerrymandering. In your first post, you did not at one point make it clear how the Knights were picked. Idk how you can be insulted by not being transparent enough with us.

Not offended, just hurt. I’ve never done anything with bad intentions so for you to assume something like that is not something I could’ve expected, nor am I to blame. Originally I didn’t mention how people were divided as to not make anyone feel bad, as skill level was a factor considered. I wanted it to be seen as completely random.

Supermikey97 wrote on 10th February 2019, 07:45 PM:
3rd: Ever since the Empire took control over every island, the problems of one island have always been the problems of the Empire. When Providence was attacked by IMPERIAL, your War Knights saw it their duty to pitch in because Providence is a colony of the empire. You were already “stronger together.” Your new system didn’t change that.

The difference is now it’s official that we always work together - and it’s not “my system.” It wasn’t my idea. I’m just trying to make it work the best I can. Damen wanted less ranks, Ian provided the idea to merge all knights, and all the colony rulers agreed to it. I can never please everyone but I’m trying. I’m sorry you don’t like it, but this is how things are now. Instead of just pointing out everything wrong with it, suggesting changes to make it better would probably be more beneficial to everyone. Thank you.
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Member
546 posts
274
10th February 2019, 09:28 PM

Supermikey97 wrote on 10th February 2019, 03:40 PM:
Cristal412 wrote on 10th February 2019, 03:27 PM:
1. Out of place
I agree that we have a lot of knights, and that CZ is dead but this was a needed change to happen because it was even MORE disorganized the way it was before. Cavaliers, north knights, eastern battalion and imperial knights all got titles and nightwatch wasn't given one. I know it's simple to just make the title but Damen didn't want to make a title for nightwatch because there were too many knight ranks.
Despite the fact that CZ is dead or not, the knight system was in place to help balance out the amount of knights there were in each land. Two islands were dead while the other 3 were active and Orbay wasn't doing much to fix the fact that he had no eastern battalion (no offence orbay). Merging all the knights helped fixed the problem of imbalance, so when a division is in need of knights we can switch around the knights to help make everything balanced again.
And I know we could just switch around people and just have separate knight ranks but again, Damen didn't like the idea of having so many knight ranks when half of them were dead.
2. Abused
Yes a lot of people were switched around, and it's something that had to be done only because there were more knights in one island than the other. People were switched around to places they are BEST fit in. It's also based on combat and who they'd work well with. If you think there are people in divisions who are inactive or they don't like that division they are in this can easily be fixed between the land owners and the lord commander. It's not like these changes are forever and I am a very open minded person and if people don't like where they are placed they can be switched if they have a valid reason.
Also, I agree with what you said for Ians point and I'll talk to Ian about switching around people. We didn't try to make him get the short end of the stick and I'd assume these people would get more active. This problem can be easily fixed by talking to the people in the division.
3. Confusing
- Your confusion with my role: I am in charge of all divisions and I work with the 4 KCs and island leaders to make decisions. The lord commander basically has the final say. I also lead south division (which is why there's no KC for south division)
- Your confusion with factions: It was actually hard to make knights before the change. Ian didn't have the same amount of knights the north and south did. Providence, dorval and das were at the short end of the stick because they didn't get the same amount of knights as the other islands and it was hard to find people who were actually interested in the role. Chelsey even lowered the limit of knights to 8 and I had to demote to people from imperial knight. Having factions makes it smoother to move people around and it's much more organized. You also say the empire doesn't need to be simplified but it's better if it is just so new users and other users are able to understand it more.
- "This way, if we have a lack of Knights in one division, we're able to reassign Knights from another division without any conflict."
I already discussed this and if there are problems again, KCs and land leaders can always approach me and ask this problem can easily be fixed lol
- "Bringing us together has also made us a stronger fighting force against evil."
Today we got info that das is gonna get attacked in the next to weeks so yeah, we'll see what CZ has to say about this.
4. Identity
- Again, this is something that can also be changed very easily. Armors can be made, unique weapons for certain divisions that are only exclusive to the certain islands, etc. There will always be a lot of diversity between all the lands and that's why I am open to any suggestions.
I think this post was really needed and I will for sure make changes ASAP. If you have any other suggestions u can DM me.
Thanks for the response, and I’m glad you’re open minded enough to fix the flaws in the new system. However I have some other questions.
1. How does creating an inbalance of Knights in divisions create balance of all Knights in divisions? There are clearly a lot more Southern Division Knights than say Prov Division or Das Division. Why does there really need to be a balance anyway. It seemed like it was fine to begin with and an inbalance could have been taken up with the Kings themselves.
2. Switching people based on “who they worked well with” and “activity” was clearly not transparent in the first explanation so thank you for pointing that out. However I don’t know how you defined these because everyone is different.
3. I still don’t see why Simplification was necessary or what was so hard about making promoting people who WERE interested in the rank.
4. Your fix to identity requires a lot more work and even then won’t really be enough. But I’m sure over the time these changes would be beneficial anyway.
We chould just make foreign ranks black nc no title but having a faction
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Emperor Regent
Master
787 posts
2,378
11th February 2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:
Orbay wasn't doing much to fix the fact that he had no eastern battalion (no offence orbay)

Not offended, just hurt.

Jk, but seriously, you honestly don't get much of a choice when literally every one of the good/active candidates were hired for the South or North.

I have to agree with Mike on this one. All the well-known Knights were relocated to South or North, and when you look at the Knights of each Isle, you can clearly see the difference in activity and experience.

I wanted to take my time and see who would be best for the rank, since I didn't know anything about the remaining candidates, but ig patience only lasts for a few days.

And now, me having Das Knights doesn't even matter, because
1. I have never seen any of them on (except Bashy, who wants to switch)
2. I can't have them promoted because I haven't seen them on


Good idea on Ian's part, but questionable execution


-Orbay
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hot eyebrows
Moderator
994 posts
1,122
11th February 2019, 12:02 PM

Orbay wrote on 11th February 2019, 10:46 AM:
Quote:
Orbay wasn't doing much to fix the fact that he had no eastern battalion (no offence orbay)
Not offended, just hurt.
Jk, but seriously, you honestly don't get much of a choice when literally every one of the good/active candidates were hired for the South or North.
I have to agree with Mike on this one. All the well-known Knights were relocated to South or North, and when you look at the Knights of each Isle, you can clearly see the difference in activity and experience.
I wanted to take my time and see who would be best for the rank, since I didn't know anything about the remaining candidates, but ig patience only lasts for a few days.
And now, me having Das Knights doesn't even matter, because
1. I have never seen any of them on (except Bashy, who wants to switch)
2. I can't have them promoted because I haven't seen them on
Good idea on Ian's part, but questionable execution
-Orbay

You mention that ALL “well known” knights were located to the north and the south. I find this offensive to the knights that are in your division.. who I’ve worked close with over my time as imperial knight AND as knight captain. I can tell you that the people in your division are skilled and they are great knights... not to mention they came from the south and were put in Das. Dumbing down your own knights is upsetting to hear because they worked hard to earn the ranks they did and now you’re complaining that they aren’t good enough.

Another thing, coffeecow is an AMAZING KC for das and she’s been doing everything she could to make her division more organized even making a new chat, asking questions and keeping close contact with other KCs so what are you complaining about?

You also state that you have never seen any of your knights, of course you haven’t because your timezone is far more ahead than EST.

You wanted time to pick out your knights and I offered that time, I wanted to do a public training session for you to pick a KC but you didn’t come back to me about that which should be your responsibility.

Me and chelsey posted the spreadsheet of the knights A LOT in the discord group chat and you didn’t have any objections for the knights you had and didn’t bother DMing me OR chelsey about this situation, instead you’re commenting about this situation now on the forums.

It’s too bad you question the execution of Ian’s plan because you never dmed me or chelsey about these concerns BEFORE Ian posted the plan.

Also the MINIMUM activity for knights is 10 hours. Almost all knights are working towards that and you also have to consider that it’s fairly close to the beginning of the month/middle of the month.
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