♪ ♫ ♪
Master
2,958 posts
4,230
Seen 30th December 2020
Stags
9th August 2020, 06:40 PM
If a moderator wants to change the category for this, they can, but I think that this topic is up for debate so I’ll put it that way.
Of course, when something bad happens in the community, like a nuke from an unknown source, people want to go on the blame train. At first, even I was thinking it was Orbay, but that was more of a rumor if you will.
If I’ll be honest, I think that bias CAN be bad. But, in this certain case, it is proving to be a good thing. Let me explain what I mean. Bias in its core is not negative or positive. It can be seen as such depending on what the topic is. Political bias is always seen as bad from any opposing side. That’s probably the most prominent example that the majority of you will think of when you hear the word (and I don’t want to make this about politics, just making that clear, just an example). With political bias, people usually have certain opinions that are tough to change because that person has their own thoughts and opinions, which is great that we can have our own thoughts. Bias as a definition is actually biased (hot take), because people have a preset notion that it’s negative. The definition in most dictionaries uses words like prejudices, or favored unfairly to describe it.
But, in this certain case, there is a positive bias. People are willing to look past the actions of a user who made an honest mistake and can agree on the terms of the set punishment. The majority will not always be right, but in this case and many in the past, the members of the community know each other well enough to determine the characters of each other. If you don’t think that’s true, well this is the internet, and people are more likely to share secrets about themselves because they trust people in a tight-knit community.
Was there bias when it came to people’s thoughts because damen settled it with sled already? I think so. I think that people are more likely to accept an apology if it’s been accepted by other people and especially staff. But, this decision was up to Damen, and his mind was made. I, personally, think that any punishment or lack thereof is fine if it is done by Damen, because he has every right to do whatever he wishes, but I think that if it means people need to talk about it, they should, because this place is a community and needs feedback from many of its members, not just one or a few.
People like wilf, who no offense, basically just used this as an opportunity to promote himself for EH because he felt rejected by the current one, is not a good way of handling the situation. He made some good points in some of his posts, and I agree that there is some bias when it comes to creating punishments on experienced ranked users. This can be put to a double standard, and I want to acknowledge that. There have been some unfair forgivenesses and bad bias in the past, and I think someone like Roberto was a good example of that. Although he was very disciplinary and seemed to have everything in check, he was incredibly rude to the staff members and felt such a higher power over the users. He was treated so well, though, like a business contract that you don’t want to break. He put a lot of sense into people, but treated them less like people and more like paid workers. Less about him. In general, if sled were not as high up as she was at the time, I think the punishment would’ve been more severe for whoever committed it. That’s unfortunate, but when you gain trust over time and are especially a first time offender, you should be given more trust that you won’t do it again, which is why that someone doing something like this is inexcusable, but other factors should be taken into consideration. If sled got off scot-free, that would’ve been much more debatable of a conversation. Summary is, the more people know you in the community, the more they can trust you. It’s a bias that I’m willing to accept, because we have created bonds so tight that we are willing to forgive the negative actions of our users. As long as that person is not a repeat offender and can prove themself worthy of trust again, they can regain my trust. If sled were just demoted period, I also wouldn’t mind, because that’s just the punishment route that would be taken, and she’d have to accept that.
I agree on the fact that some wrongdoings are worse than others, but intention definitely matters. A nuke surely is horrible (and yes I am going to be serious about a penguin game because this stuff matters), but the intentions were to kill evildoers, and maybe a few passerby's if unlucky. The timing was poor, and the thoughtfulness of the decision was bad, but intentions were still to kill the malicious users. This was not with malicious intent, but rather misguided intent. A punishment was still made, temporary demotion with chance of regaining positions. If this were with malcontent and hate for the good side, then I would be more understanding of a harsher punishment.
As a community, I think it’s okay to be biased towards the users that have become a part of the community, with certain conditions like intent, trustworthiness, personality, and experience coming into play when creating a punishment. I’ve seen the mercy of players in the past few years, and I’m impressed at the maturity that we can have when forgiving others. Even though we can have some bad moments, there are so many more good ones that can overcome the bad ones. I don’t want to focus on the bad that much, because I know it can just create more negativity when other people see it’s acceptable. I’m proud of you all to be accepting of those in your community, but I want to remind you that it’s okay to have opinions and healthy debate as long as we are still following the rules. Don’t take everything too seriously, and step back when you see fit. If you feel like you’re in the right, but are at a point of mass opposition, you might just have to keep your opinions to yourself, because mass controversy isn’t a good idea. Majority isn’t always right, and same goes for the minority, but we must be mature when it comes to respecting others and the rules simultaneously. If there is an unfair punishment on someone, I trust the users to call it out when necessary.
I love you all, and I respect you as well. We just need to work as a community to make good decisions and prevent bad ones from happening. You’re smart, so think about your decisions and the impact they will have, whether it be on one side or the other. waddle on (:
Of course, when something bad happens in the community, like a nuke from an unknown source, people want to go on the blame train. At first, even I was thinking it was Orbay, but that was more of a rumor if you will.
If I’ll be honest, I think that bias CAN be bad. But, in this certain case, it is proving to be a good thing. Let me explain what I mean. Bias in its core is not negative or positive. It can be seen as such depending on what the topic is. Political bias is always seen as bad from any opposing side. That’s probably the most prominent example that the majority of you will think of when you hear the word (and I don’t want to make this about politics, just making that clear, just an example). With political bias, people usually have certain opinions that are tough to change because that person has their own thoughts and opinions, which is great that we can have our own thoughts. Bias as a definition is actually biased (hot take), because people have a preset notion that it’s negative. The definition in most dictionaries uses words like prejudices, or favored unfairly to describe it.
But, in this certain case, there is a positive bias. People are willing to look past the actions of a user who made an honest mistake and can agree on the terms of the set punishment. The majority will not always be right, but in this case and many in the past, the members of the community know each other well enough to determine the characters of each other. If you don’t think that’s true, well this is the internet, and people are more likely to share secrets about themselves because they trust people in a tight-knit community.
Was there bias when it came to people’s thoughts because damen settled it with sled already? I think so. I think that people are more likely to accept an apology if it’s been accepted by other people and especially staff. But, this decision was up to Damen, and his mind was made. I, personally, think that any punishment or lack thereof is fine if it is done by Damen, because he has every right to do whatever he wishes, but I think that if it means people need to talk about it, they should, because this place is a community and needs feedback from many of its members, not just one or a few.
People like wilf, who no offense, basically just used this as an opportunity to promote himself for EH because he felt rejected by the current one, is not a good way of handling the situation. He made some good points in some of his posts, and I agree that there is some bias when it comes to creating punishments on experienced ranked users. This can be put to a double standard, and I want to acknowledge that. There have been some unfair forgivenesses and bad bias in the past, and I think someone like Roberto was a good example of that. Although he was very disciplinary and seemed to have everything in check, he was incredibly rude to the staff members and felt such a higher power over the users. He was treated so well, though, like a business contract that you don’t want to break. He put a lot of sense into people, but treated them less like people and more like paid workers. Less about him. In general, if sled were not as high up as she was at the time, I think the punishment would’ve been more severe for whoever committed it. That’s unfortunate, but when you gain trust over time and are especially a first time offender, you should be given more trust that you won’t do it again, which is why that someone doing something like this is inexcusable, but other factors should be taken into consideration. If sled got off scot-free, that would’ve been much more debatable of a conversation. Summary is, the more people know you in the community, the more they can trust you. It’s a bias that I’m willing to accept, because we have created bonds so tight that we are willing to forgive the negative actions of our users. As long as that person is not a repeat offender and can prove themself worthy of trust again, they can regain my trust. If sled were just demoted period, I also wouldn’t mind, because that’s just the punishment route that would be taken, and she’d have to accept that.
I agree on the fact that some wrongdoings are worse than others, but intention definitely matters. A nuke surely is horrible (and yes I am going to be serious about a penguin game because this stuff matters), but the intentions were to kill evildoers, and maybe a few passerby's if unlucky. The timing was poor, and the thoughtfulness of the decision was bad, but intentions were still to kill the malicious users. This was not with malicious intent, but rather misguided intent. A punishment was still made, temporary demotion with chance of regaining positions. If this were with malcontent and hate for the good side, then I would be more understanding of a harsher punishment.
As a community, I think it’s okay to be biased towards the users that have become a part of the community, with certain conditions like intent, trustworthiness, personality, and experience coming into play when creating a punishment. I’ve seen the mercy of players in the past few years, and I’m impressed at the maturity that we can have when forgiving others. Even though we can have some bad moments, there are so many more good ones that can overcome the bad ones. I don’t want to focus on the bad that much, because I know it can just create more negativity when other people see it’s acceptable. I’m proud of you all to be accepting of those in your community, but I want to remind you that it’s okay to have opinions and healthy debate as long as we are still following the rules. Don’t take everything too seriously, and step back when you see fit. If you feel like you’re in the right, but are at a point of mass opposition, you might just have to keep your opinions to yourself, because mass controversy isn’t a good idea. Majority isn’t always right, and same goes for the minority, but we must be mature when it comes to respecting others and the rules simultaneously. If there is an unfair punishment on someone, I trust the users to call it out when necessary.
I love you all, and I respect you as well. We just need to work as a community to make good decisions and prevent bad ones from happening. You’re smart, so think about your decisions and the impact they will have, whether it be on one side or the other. waddle on (:
Donec mors nos separaveri
Member
1,013 posts
3,385
Seen 31st August 2023
Hydra
10th August 2020, 04:32 AM
The reason people, including myself, were angry about the outcome of this wasn't because Sled wasn't permanently demoted or anything of the sort.
It was because people started pointing fingers at ALPHA, Falcon's military, and immediately assumed that he had done it, because "Sled certainly couldn't have done it."
They used the same excuse to accuse Falcon as they did to defend Sled: Lack of evidence.
Even when Falcon did prove legitimate evidence, he was then called a liar.
And when Sled did eventually confess, everyone who was mad about the missile suddenly became sunshine and rainbows, and "your actions don't define you queen!!!!" mode was engaged.
Not only was there bias, there was blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
I personally think bias is a bad thing. Regardless of who you are and what good deeds you've done as an individual, you are prone to making mistakes, like every human can. And when you do, you should face proper punishment, like every human should. Obviously we're not going to start hating on Sled, and we'll still support her because she's been a really helpful EH, but to post stuff like "Don't worry about the missile queen!!" AFTER you've bashed Falcon with insults for throwing a missile is blatant hypocrisy. And nobody even apologized until me, Fable, Eugee and some of the other boys insisted that whoever accused Falcon apologize immediately.
Bias is an unmistakable part of life, and whether someone can truly be purely unbiased is debatable, but as a human being, we should strive to be as unbiased as we can, so we don't let our favor in one thought or individual cause trouble for us.
Say your friend is having a fist fight with someone you don't know. Naturally, you'd help out your friend, right?
Wrong.
You break up the fight, and ask what's going on. It could be that the stranger did something bad to your friend,
or it could be the exact opposite.
Say your friend stole something from that stranger. If you were to engage with your bias, you would have helped beat up a kid who had his stuff stolen from your friend.
See what I mean? Regardless of context, having an unbiased state of mind is the ideal way for anyone to follow.
It was because people started pointing fingers at ALPHA, Falcon's military, and immediately assumed that he had done it, because "Sled certainly couldn't have done it."
They used the same excuse to accuse Falcon as they did to defend Sled: Lack of evidence.
Even when Falcon did prove legitimate evidence, he was then called a liar.
And when Sled did eventually confess, everyone who was mad about the missile suddenly became sunshine and rainbows, and "your actions don't define you queen!!!!" mode was engaged.
Not only was there bias, there was blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
I personally think bias is a bad thing. Regardless of who you are and what good deeds you've done as an individual, you are prone to making mistakes, like every human can. And when you do, you should face proper punishment, like every human should. Obviously we're not going to start hating on Sled, and we'll still support her because she's been a really helpful EH, but to post stuff like "Don't worry about the missile queen!!" AFTER you've bashed Falcon with insults for throwing a missile is blatant hypocrisy. And nobody even apologized until me, Fable, Eugee and some of the other boys insisted that whoever accused Falcon apologize immediately.
Bias is an unmistakable part of life, and whether someone can truly be purely unbiased is debatable, but as a human being, we should strive to be as unbiased as we can, so we don't let our favor in one thought or individual cause trouble for us.
Say your friend is having a fist fight with someone you don't know. Naturally, you'd help out your friend, right?
Wrong.
You break up the fight, and ask what's going on. It could be that the stranger did something bad to your friend,
or it could be the exact opposite.
Say your friend stole something from that stranger. If you were to engage with your bias, you would have helped beat up a kid who had his stuff stolen from your friend.
See what I mean? Regardless of context, having an unbiased state of mind is the ideal way for anyone to follow.
亡霊
Master
713 posts
3,848
Seen 6th October 2020
Drake
10th August 2020, 08:21 AM
Orbay wrote on 10th August 2020, 04:32 AM:
The reason people, including myself, were angry about the outcome of this wasn't because Sled wasn't permanently demoted or anything of the sort.
It was because people started pointing fingers at ALPHA, Falcon's military, and immediately assumed that he had done it, because "Sled certainly couldn't have done it."
They used the same excuse to accuse Falcon as they did to defend Sled: Lack of evidence.
Even when Falcon did prove legitimate evidence, he was then called a liar.
And when Sled did eventually confess, everyone who was mad about the missile suddenly became sunshine and rainbows, and "your actions don't define you queen!!!!" mode was engaged.
Not only was there bias, there was blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
It was because people started pointing fingers at ALPHA, Falcon's military, and immediately assumed that he had done it, because "Sled certainly couldn't have done it."
They used the same excuse to accuse Falcon as they did to defend Sled: Lack of evidence.
Even when Falcon did prove legitimate evidence, he was then called a liar.
And when Sled did eventually confess, everyone who was mad about the missile suddenly became sunshine and rainbows, and "your actions don't define you queen!!!!" mode was engaged.
Not only was there bias, there was blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
it's a shame ALPHA was being wrongly accused, but things like history and intent are considered in literally every situation like this when it comes to punishment and general reaction, hence why Sled garnered the response she did. if had Sled nuked the trial because she thought it was funny, or because she wanted to kill innocents, or despite knowing it would kill the entire room, then she would not have had the same reaction from people. this has nothing to do with hypocrisy and double standards. this has to do with considering outside factors. when you consider history and intent, a lot of the anger goes away because now we know that it was simply a foolish mistake and not a planned assault on everyone in the room, because Sled has never had ill intentions before and has always cared for the game and its users. this is the bias DSC is referring to, and there's nothing wrong with it, in my opinion.
as for your example of helping out a friend in a fist fight, it's possible to have bias in these situations while still acting fairly. you say "naturally" you'd help your friend out, but personally i'd do exactly as you said was the correct move: break it up and ask what happened. the bias comes in when you know that your friend feels very negatively towards thieves, or alternatively you know that your friend has a tendency to take things that aren't theirs. from this bias, you'd have a preconceived notion of the situation which is susceptible to change when given further information. that's what DSC is talking about. not blind bias, but the bias that comes with being aware of people's personalities and past. if bias goes too far it's harmful, but otherwise it's not too bad. it's actually something literally everyone has naturally, unless you're Gandhi or something.
♪ ♫ ♪
Master
2,958 posts
4,230
Seen 30th December 2020
10th August 2020, 10:02 AM
Orbay wrote on 10th August 2020, 04:32 AM:
The reason people, including myself, were angry about the outcome of this wasn't because Sled wasn't permanently demoted or anything of the sort.
It was because people started pointing fingers at ALPHA, Falcon's military, and immediately assumed that he had done it, because "Sled certainly couldn't have done it."
They used the same excuse to accuse Falcon as they did to defend Sled: Lack of evidence.
Even when Falcon did prove legitimate evidence, he was then called a liar.
And when Sled did eventually confess, everyone who was mad about the missile suddenly became sunshine and rainbows, and "your actions don't define you queen!!!!" mode was engaged.
Not only was there bias, there was blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
I personally think bias is a bad thing. Regardless of who you are and what good deeds you've done as an individual, you are prone to making mistakes, like every human can. And when you do, you should face proper punishment, like every human should. Obviously we're not going to start hating on Sled, and we'll still support her because she's been a really helpful EH, but to post stuff like "Don't worry about the missile queen!!" AFTER you've bashed Falcon with insults for throwing a missile is blatant hypocrisy. And nobody even apologized until me, Fable, Eugee and some of the other boys insisted that whoever accused Falcon apologize immediately.
Bias is an unmistakable part of life, and whether someone can truly be purely unbiased is debatable, but as a human being, we should strive to be as unbiased as we can, so we don't let our favor in one thought or individual cause trouble for us.
Say your friend is having a fist fight with someone you don't know. Naturally, you'd help out your friend, right?
Wrong.
You break up the fight, and ask what's going on. It could be that the stranger did something bad to your friend,
or it could be the exact opposite.
Say your friend stole something from that stranger. If you were to engage with your bias, you would have helped beat up a kid who had his stuff stolen from your friend.
See what I mean? Regardless of context, having an unbiased state of mind is the ideal way for anyone to follow.
It was because people started pointing fingers at ALPHA, Falcon's military, and immediately assumed that he had done it, because "Sled certainly couldn't have done it."
They used the same excuse to accuse Falcon as they did to defend Sled: Lack of evidence.
Even when Falcon did prove legitimate evidence, he was then called a liar.
And when Sled did eventually confess, everyone who was mad about the missile suddenly became sunshine and rainbows, and "your actions don't define you queen!!!!" mode was engaged.
Not only was there bias, there was blatant hypocrisy and double standards.
I personally think bias is a bad thing. Regardless of who you are and what good deeds you've done as an individual, you are prone to making mistakes, like every human can. And when you do, you should face proper punishment, like every human should. Obviously we're not going to start hating on Sled, and we'll still support her because she's been a really helpful EH, but to post stuff like "Don't worry about the missile queen!!" AFTER you've bashed Falcon with insults for throwing a missile is blatant hypocrisy. And nobody even apologized until me, Fable, Eugee and some of the other boys insisted that whoever accused Falcon apologize immediately.
Bias is an unmistakable part of life, and whether someone can truly be purely unbiased is debatable, but as a human being, we should strive to be as unbiased as we can, so we don't let our favor in one thought or individual cause trouble for us.
Say your friend is having a fist fight with someone you don't know. Naturally, you'd help out your friend, right?
Wrong.
You break up the fight, and ask what's going on. It could be that the stranger did something bad to your friend,
or it could be the exact opposite.
Say your friend stole something from that stranger. If you were to engage with your bias, you would have helped beat up a kid who had his stuff stolen from your friend.
See what I mean? Regardless of context, having an unbiased state of mind is the ideal way for anyone to follow.
Truly it seems like people are more forgiving to an individual rather than a military personnel whose identity isn't known by many. People did overreact when pointing fingers, because with lack of information, anyone could've done it. Double standards? Of course I would say yes to that to a certain extent because the accused were much different from each other; that's because its miltary vs individual. I honestly don't think people were being all ditzy and innocent, and I think that was their genuine reaction after hearing about the situation. Most of the people accusing ALPHA were not your standard user, ones who are not really involved in the military. If those people accused a military of doing something without evidence, they are basically asking for war. People who don't understand enough or care about the specifics of the military probably did not take this situation as seriously. Everyone who was revived was obviously happy, because it wasn't as unfair as they had previously assumed. If that were the case, I think people also would've gone bat crazy accusing and punishing. One last thing is that it really goes to show how much people had trust in Sled that they thought she didn't do it. Most people that aren't that involved have a different perspective, and I'm sorry that this made you angry, since someone was innocent in this situation.
I may have worded it in a way that you didn't fully understand. There are many different types of bias, some bad, some good, some in between.
I don't think I can have a 100% unbiased mind when seeing my friend in a fist fight, certainly you know that. I would personally ask what's happening as long as neither party have a dangerous weapon. If both people told me that the other one stole something from one another, I would more likely believe my friend. If I found out it was my friend, I would be more disappointed than if they told me the truth, because they did two wrongdoings at once with the intent of getting me to believe they are innocent. If that were the case, it would take me a long time, if at all, to be close to that person again, because they not only did something illegal (steal), but they lied to my face about it.
If I'm more naive around my friends than with strangers, then I'm fine with that, because I trust my friend. But if they hurt me in some way, I have to think about the factors that caused them to do that thing, and evaluate what I take away from it and if I still want to be their friend. I want to trust the people who have showed me that I can trust them, and as long as I don't find out that everything about them is a sham, a lie, a big fat nothing, then I will probably forgive them to certain extent. It depends on their intentions and willingness they'd go to hurt you if they've been your friend for a while.