Hello,
As you've all seen recently, Damen made a post where he shared recent logs of people who died and stated that he removed the weapons of Biter and Warth for "exploiting them". This, in turn caused an argument between the users of the South and people like Alatar and Biter about whether the recent murders were exploits or not.

Regardless of what side I'm on, I've always been one to encourage fairness, and that is why today, I will be sharing my reasons for taking Alatar's side in this debate, and why I believe that there was no exploiting done.

What is "exploit?"
Exploit: Make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.

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unfair or underhand.

According to this definition, people like Mance, Biter and Warth would have to obtain their weapons through methods that are outside of the game's rules, such as hacking.

However, that's not the case. While it is true that some may have received their weapons from PIG, that's still very within the rules of the game.

Now that I've established that it's not an exploit, let's discuss if it's considered "abuse".

Is an evil person killing someone abuse?
This has been an argument for a while, and while there has been no clear answer due to contrasting ideas, I hope to put an end to this.

Murder committed by someone evil is not abuse.

Does that mean abuse doesn't exist? No. If you are ranked and you use your weapon to kill innocents, then you've abused a weapon you've been entrusted with.

But evil people don't have that responsibility, so they are in no shape or form obligated to refrain from killing people, including innocents. On the contrary, they're encouraged to kill in the name of Pythas, so it should be completely understandable that they can and will commit murders in the island of South.

I saw a quote from Loki that said:

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Exploits can unbalance the game and rules are there to keep it fair and safe

And that is exactly correct. However, this doesn't mean Warth or Mance have broken any rules because:

Laws are not the same as rules
Rules were put in place to prevent users from doing things such as spamming snowballs, or using illegal methods to exploit the game. They apply in the entirety of the game, and can be punished with arrest, kick, or ban.

Laws, however, are placed individually by each Island ruler to prevent the disruption of peace in said islands. Acts such as attempted murder and murder are against the laws, and can be punished by being arrested or executed.

Or, at least it should be.

Murder is against the laws, not the rules, so it shouldn't be a bannable offense, even if it's a mass slaughter.

Another quote I saw from Loki reads:

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You would end up banned on your rampages because you would target people who wanted no part of anything, like mods who were there to moderate rather than be killed by you in your selfish abuse

That's... the point.

Evil people kill so they can spread despair and suffering onto others in the name of Pythas. I know that doesn't sound good, but then they wouldn't be "evil", would they?

Conclusion
Killing people should not be a bannable offense, nor should it cause someone to be disarmed without being arrested first. This game carries a lot of bias when it comes to whether someone who killed someone should be arrested or banned, and I'm calling out those who have partaken in this act (you know who you are.)

If you want to add an actual evil side to this game, then you have to learn to differentiate whether something is breaking a rule, or breaking a law.

To the mods:
If someone is spamming snowballs, you're expected to warn, kick and/or ban them.

But when someone commits murder, you shouldn't kick or ban them, you should arrest them so they can be disarmed and trialed, or killed in jail, depending on circumstances.

To Damen:
Revivals after "unfair deaths" are dumb. They ruin the point of targeted assassinations or targeted slaughters. The only clause for a revival should be if you were either in spawn, or if your health was manipulated illegally in db.


So, yeah.

Why should you have to be ranked for the death to be counted as an offense? I was killed in random spots because it was funny and didn't matter because the game was dying; what the murderer expressed to me. Killing innocents who are working hard on earning hours whether it be POTM hours or gold earnings for a certain cosmetic, they shouldn't have that taken away and have no reason to be revived because the person who killed them was titled as "evil". By naming unranked players who kill "evil", and saying it should be allowed, what if that person decided to drop seven differen't nukes around oldcp or just wen't on a killing spree with a saber, that would be viable because death is apart of the game and that person is evil? Why would you support kicking/banning someone over snowball spam than a murder massacre happening right in front of you?

Evil murdering people is abuse when it is not part of crimezone and does not further the plot of crimezone in any way, shape, or form. This is how its pretty much always been. Long ago I killed Layla because I was evil and I was punished severely and she got revived. Why? Because it was pure and simple abuse. There was no good reason for it. Evil have the responsibility to use their weapons wisely. Just because they’re evil does not give them the right to constantly break laws or rules.

When people are killed for crimezone, there’s not much of a problem. When it’s for no reason, there’s a problem.

Everything in this post is true whether you like it or not. Evil people aren't there to follow the rules otherwise they wouldn't be evil. Just make a new acc and get on with your life tbh.

stop crying if you die you die ez

Macy wrote on 3rd October 2020, 10:46 AM:

Why should you have to be ranked for the death to be counted as an offense? I was killed in random spots because it was funny and didn't matter because the game was dying; what the murderer expressed to me. Killing innocents who are working hard on earning hours whether it be POTM hours or gold earnings for a certain cosmetic, they shouldn't have that taken away and have no reason to be revived because the person who killed them was titled as "evil". By naming unranked players who kill "evil", and saying it should be allowed, what if that person decided to drop seven differen't nukes around oldcp or just wen't on a killing spree with a saber, that would be viable because death is apart of the game and that person is evil?

I never said it isn't an offense, nor it shouldn't be punishable. Obviously you're going to punish people who kill, but you do it via arresting and executing them, not banning them.

Both a ranked user who abuses their weapon and an evil person who kills are subject to the same punishment. I just wanted to clear up the misconception that:

1) Evil people are exploiting/abusing
2) They should be banned because of it

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Why would you support kicking/banning someone over snowball spam than a murder massacre happening right in front of you?

Because evil exists in this game? If you're going to just ban everyone and anyone who murders, then what's the point of having trials, or even having an evil side to begin with?

It's a game. Some people just want to watch the world burn, and so they'll do it when cz gives them weapons to do so.

Loki wrote on 3rd October 2020, 11:18 AM:

Evil murdering people is abuse when it is not part of crimezone and does not further the plot of crimezone in any way, shape, or form. This is how its pretty much always been. Long ago I killed Layla because I was evil and I was punished severely and she got revived. Why? Because it was pure and simple abuse. There was no good reason for it. Evil have the responsibility to use their weapons wisely. Just because they’re evil does not give them the right to constantly break laws or rules.
When people are killed for crimezone, there’s not much of a problem. When it’s for no reason, there’s a problem.

There's not always a reason to kill. If you want to do it, you do it. And if you do it illegally, you get punished by being arrested and possibly executed.

But by banning anyone who commits murder, you're basically ruining the fun of having weapons in the game.

"You can use weapons to fight, except if you're evil, you can't kill anyone unless a cz character logs on. Or you're big bad and gotta be banned."

Also, it's incredibly funny how you're against abuse of weapons when you literally maul cz characters for no reason, then play the victim and say "they targeted you".

The hypocrisy is leaking out.

Loki wrote on 3rd October 2020, 11:18 AM:

Evil murdering people is abuse when it is not part of crimezone and does not further the plot of crimezone in any way, shape, or form. This is how its pretty much always been. Long ago I killed Layla because I was evil and I was punished severely and she got revived. Why? Because it was pure and simple abuse. There was no good reason for it. Evil have the responsibility to use their weapons wisely. Just because they’re evil does not give them the right to constantly break laws or rules.
When people are killed for crimezone, there’s not much of a problem. When it’s for no reason, there’s a problem.

the Wikipedia definition of "Abuse of power" is the following:

Here, it is clearly stated that abuse of power is when you have an official duty. If you have no ties, or an official duty, no, it is not abuse. Yes, it is still illegal, and yes it is still punishable by death, but there's no reason to ban someone over it, because it's simply not abuse. If you obtain a weapon as an unranked user, and go on a rampage, realistically, what can they do to you? You have no role to be removed from, you have no power apart from the sword you're using, it is not abuse. You are not breaking rules, you're breaking laws.

Loki mauled me on das like 4 times for no reason as a “joke” a few weeks ago and is here complaining about abuse. ? funny

Jonathan1tt1 wrote on 3rd October 2020, 02:29 PM:

Loki mauled me on das like 4 times for no reason as a “joke” a few weeks ago and is here complaining about abuse. ? funny

Literally didn’t maul you. I don’t maul anyone outside of cz. Unless you’re Jimmy, in which case he actually attacked me first and then attempted to spawn kill me.

I used to maul people as a joke a lot but then I got trialed for it and I learned my lesson. So can ya'll please stop acting like its a chronic problem?

Loki wrote on 3rd October 2020, 02:59 PM:

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Jonathan1tt1 wrote on 3rd October 2020, 02:29 PM:
Loki mauled me on das like 4 times for no reason as a “joke” a few weeks ago and is here complaining about abuse. ? funny

Literally didn’t maul you. I don’t maul anyone outside of cz. Unless you’re Jimmy, in which case he actually attacked me first and then attempted to spawn kill me.
I used to maul people as a joke a lot but then I got trialled for it and I learned my lesson.

wallah u mauled me a few times the day of das war HOURS after it finished and it was just zes, brit, saber, little, and me hanging out. nope idc

You're going to hate to hear this but the rules that are in place is that evil should not randomly kill unless it's part of crimezone, like orders given to them from the characters. Or they fight in war. That's the tough part about being evil is having that restraint, because if you don't then it's abuse. It's how things are, if we let evil randomly kill without consequences like this then innocents who are just trying to play the game will get annoyed and lose interest because they have to create new accounts a ton of times. Both evil and good that kill randomly should receive consequences, although it is not always the case, and that should be worked on.

Sleddy wrote on 3rd October 2020, 10:22 PM:

You're going to hate to hear this but the rules that are in place is that evil should not randomly kill unless it's part of crimezone, like orders given to them from the characters. Or they fight in war. That's the tough part about being evil is having that restraint, because if you don't then it's abuse. It's how things are, if we let evil randomly kill without consequences like this then innocents who are just trying to play the game will get annoyed and lose interest because they have to create new accounts a ton of times. Both evil and good that kill randomly should receive consequences, although it is not always the case, and that should be worked on.

If evil cant kill innocents, whats the point of treason, trials, KOS/AOS orders, etc. Ruins the purpose. Plus, this game doesnt have many casual players anymore and most play for crimezone

its not like cz every happens and most wars are rigged for Good to win. take north war for example, a gatekeeper says “Prepare for victory” or whatever and the blockade breaks LOL??

Jonathan1tt1 wrote on 4th October 2020, 12:04 AM:

Quote:

Sleddy wrote on 3rd October 2020, 10:22 PM:
You're going to hate to hear this but the rules that are in place is that evil should not randomly kill unless it's part of crimezone, like orders given to them from the characters. Or they fight in war. That's the tough part about being evil is having that restraint, because if you don't then it's abuse. It's how things are, if we let evil randomly kill without consequences like this then innocents who are just trying to play the game will get annoyed and lose interest because they have to create new accounts a ton of times. Both evil and good that kill randomly should receive consequences, although it is not always the case, and that should be worked on.

If evil cant kill innocents, whats the point of treason, trials, KOS/AOS orders, etc. Ruins the purpose. Plus, this game doesnt have many casual players anymore and most play for crimezone
its not like cz every happens and most wars are rigged for Good to win. take north war for example, a gatekeeper says “Prepare for victory” or whatever and the blockade breaks LOL??

there isn't supposed to be treason, trials, kos/aos orders. it's there because people don't follow the rules. but even if evil kills innocents for crimezone it's there for that too. it's part of being evil. the whole point is that you're not supposed to do it randomly/for no reason. same with people who aren't evil. they're not supposed to randomly kill as well. as for cz being inactive and wars being rigged for good, there's been times when good has lost. but not much can be done about it unless crimezone helps out evil more/it stops being rigged.

Sleddy wrote on 3rd October 2020, 10:22 PM:

You're going to hate to hear this but the rules that are in place is that evil should not randomly kill unless it's part of crimezone, like orders given to them from the characters. Or they fight in war. That's the tough part about being evil is having that restraint, because if you don't then it's abuse. It's how things are, if we let evil randomly kill without consequences like this then innocents who are just trying to play the game will get annoyed and lose interest because they have to create new accounts a ton of times. Both evil and good that kill randomly should receive consequences, although it is not always the case, and that should be worked on.

And that's precisely why we have Knights and Mode. If someone commits murder, it's literally their job to arrest, and the Knights' job to kill them. A Drac can't get armed often, only when an entity like Pig grants wishes. And if a mod or knight is going to complain about times when Dracs do get armed, they should just resign because they're too incompetent to do one of their main jobs.

There is no rule that says you can't kill innocents. There is a law, yes, but not a rule. Meaning you can't straight up ban people for killing innocents.

Also, the part about how "good" people can't kill evil people for no reason is such a lie. There has been heavy bias in favor of the "good" when it comes to killing unarmed characters. You have people like Akkar who kill characters like PIG for no reason, and Loki who maul them, then pull the victim card, to name a few.

How do you expect us to show restraint when you all show none?

Also, what new users? The game's literally gone download-only. There are no new users.

Sleddy wrote on 4th October 2020, 12:10 AM:

Quote:

Jonathan1tt1 wrote on 4th October 2020, 12:04 AM:
Quote:
Sleddy wrote on 3rd October 2020, 10:22 PM:
You're going to hate to hear this but the rules that are in place is that evil should not randomly kill unless it's part of crimezone, like orders given to them from the characters. Or they fight in war. That's the tough part about being evil is having that restraint, because if you don't then it's abuse. It's how things are, if we let evil randomly kill without consequences like this then innocents who are just trying to play the game will get annoyed and lose interest because they have to create new accounts a ton of times. Both evil and good that kill randomly should receive consequences, although it is not always the case, and that should be worked on.

If evil cant kill innocents, whats the point of treason, trials, KOS/AOS orders, etc. Ruins the purpose. Plus, this game doesnt have many casual players anymore and most play for crimezone
its not like cz every happens and most wars are rigged for Good to win. take north war for example, a gatekeeper says “Prepare for victory” or whatever and the blockade breaks LOL??
there isn't supposed to be treason, trials, kos/aos orders. it's there because people don't follow the rules. but even if evil kills innocents for crimezone it's there for that too. it's part of being evil. the whole point is that you're not supposed to do it randomly/for no reason. same with people who aren't evil. they're not supposed to randomly kill as well. as for cz being inactive and wars being rigged for good, there's been times when good has lost. but not much can be done about it unless crimezone helps out evil more/it stops being rigged.

that's actually false, that stuff has been there for as long as I remember. its supposed to be in place, as it gives knights, and executioners a reason to be/exist. if no one can do anything against the law, since they're just banned, there's literally no point in having weapons at all